A Republican and a Democrat walk into a pizza place…
While I was in Utah for the evo conference, I met up with my best friend from high school. She lives in Utah, and just happens to be both a devout Mormon and a very serious Republican. But, she LOVES to talk politics and religion, particularly with people she doesn’t agree with. Which is awesome, because ME TOO. And even more than that, she does it while staying as lovely as always. I somehow seem to always walk away from our infrequent talks critically thinking and inspired.
She is with most Republicans in that she doesn’t want new taxes and she absolutely hates the idea of socialism. Well, she hates it as much as she hates anything, which is to say, she hates it, but would still give it a big hug, because that’s how my friend is.
And I told her that I didn’t understand the fear or hatred of socialism, in fact, I like the idea of socialism (GASP). To me, we have an obligation to help others who need it. We have an obligation to provide for those who can’t. And to me, the wealthiest people have the biggest obligation. If you have more money to spare, you should use some of it to help those who have less. That is obvious to me, and the idea that others don’t agree, just plain confuses me.
My friend sat and thought for a moment. And then she told me that the difference for her is that she already donates as much as she can. And yes, it’s primarily to church and church based organizations, but she donates it to causes she feels strongly about, causes that she feels are appropriate. She said that she doesn’t like the idea that the government tells her where to be charitable.
And internet, for the first time, the dislike of socialism made a little sense. I mean, I still disagreed with her, but I understood her perspective. For people who are already wanting to donate money, to help causes, to be charitable, socialism really isn’t necessary. And when you really think about it, the idea that we could all voluntarily help each other, without the government directing it, is kind of awesome.
And not realistic.
Because the thing is, I don’t think that very many people are like my friend. I don’t think that there are anywhere near enough people who are willing to donate as much of their income as they can safely manage, to help others. I just don’t. And maybe I’m wrong, but from what I see, and what I hear about from those who are opposed to higher taxes, who are opposed to welfare, it just seems like the charitable spirit is not so widespread.
I want to believe in people more than I do, but considering the huge fits that are being thrown by people for even small tax increases to help other people, to help this country, I just don’t see it happening. The more I read about conservative groups spitting vitriol about those who need assistance, calling them names, accusing them of addictions and laziness, the more I know that we are not ready for the government to stop legislating charity.
We are not ready.
Even I’ll admit that I’m not ready. I don’t dislike giving money, donating to those who need it, quite the opposite, really. But, I imagine like many of you, I don’t have time to do the leg work to find organizations that will really help people with my funds. And yes, I see all of you rolling your eyes at the idea that the government does that with your tax dollars, but it does.
I explained this to my friend and she frowned. She didn’t like my pessimism. She didn’t like the idea that people wouldn’t pick up the slack and help others. And I didn’t like it either, but I think that I’m right about it, and I think that for the first time, she understood my perspective and my argument for a variation of socialism.
In a little pizza place in Park City, Utah, the two of us had a discourse that few people can have. We had a conversation where we both talked and thoughtfully, genuinely listened. Where we knew that the intentions of the other person were as pure as our own. Where we had no malevolence for the other person or their opinion. Where we just wanted to learn, to understand.
I don’t know that the two of us will ever agree on politics. In the 14 years we’ve been friends, we haven’t yet. I don’t know if we’ll either be satisfied by our government, or enamored with public policy.
But I do think maybe we’d all spend a lot less time yelling if we approached politics like we were talking with friends. If we talked to others like we valued them, if we listened to ideas and tried to understand them not just change them.
Last month, a Republican and a Democrat walked into a pizza place, talked about politics and walked out as friends anyway.
19 Responses to “A Republican and a Democrat walk into a pizza place…”
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Welcome! I'm Katie, a 28 year old, full-time graduate student who just happened to have brain surgery in November of 2007 to give my ginormous brain a little more space. This blog chronicles my daily life, from relentless headaches to being a doctor's wife. Sit down, get comfortable and stay for a while.
I think it is wonderful when you can agree to disagree, especially about money and/or politics.
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i am with you to some extent on the socialism but not so much with our current government. i know there is the impetus in a lot of programs to help but the action does not always quite pan out. having worked in many settings where gov’t money is being used (schools, county hospitals) i have seen both the up and down sides of the allocation of funds and the abuse that occurs because we are so damn top heavy and bureaucratic in our systems. i do believe real change can be affected by programs but i also believe a hefty part of our monies given to taxes go towards military/crazy ineffective programs/middle men and women that lack qualifications etc. so, i think what i am really saying is i support anarchy….well, this definition of it anyways “A social state in which there is no governing person or group of people, but each individual has absolute liberty (without the implication of disorder.) But is bound by a social code .” because that would certainly foster a whole bunch of people having pizza together. wouldn’t it? (bats eyelashes innocently).
i do love that you and your friend has this great discussion/discourse and wish our damn governing reps could try just a little to emulate you two.
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A big problem for me is that government, especially big government, knows a lot about how to waste time and money. Very little of what is suppose to go to the people who need it ends up with those people. Even in the socialist societies there are haves and have nots. At least America currently is set up so it is possible for people to overcome poverty. Granted not easy, but possible. I wish more people would give too but giving it to the government does not seem to help that much. They just waste the gift. That’s my two cents. Not that you asked
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For what it’s worth, I’m with you. Not everyone is as charitable as your friend. Some people are selfish and greedy. That’s not pessimism, that’s just a fact of life. The idea that people will sort it all out themselves and take care of each other is absurd. It’s why I don’t get the people who oppose Wall Street reform – it’s like they think that the market doesn’t need to be regulated, because after all, those finance guys are all good Americans who are looking out for everyone’s best interests, right? Uh, no. They’re not. They’re looking out for themselves, and that’s it. And that’s why I think government intervention is necessary.
I love that you were able to keep the conversation civil, that’s awesome. What’s weird about politics today is that I think that for the most part, Democrats and Republicans agree on what the problems are. It’s just the solutions for the problems that we fight about.
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I love talking about politics too which you know. It is so nice to talk to someone who doesn’t agree with you but can still listen and be polite. I wish I knew more people like that!
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I have wondered for a long time, just when Socialism got to be a dirty word. And I am amazed when people say “I don’t want government telling me to do this, or that, or the other thing”. Government is people. Government is us. Government is supposed to be OF the people, BY the people and FOR the people. We Govern our selves. If you don’t like the things that those of our number who have chosen to serve in government are doing, the become part of the process. But if all you’re doing is voting – don’t complain.
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Katie Reply:
July 21st, 2010 at 7:33 am
Or if you’re not even voting. That makes me crazy. If you don’t vote, you don’t get to complain, period.
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I am so with you re: socialism AND people are greedy assholes. Socialist countries (like Sweden) have the happiest people, the best educated children, etc. etc., etc. The list goes on and on and on how a less individualistic society benefits the society as a whole.
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While I am sure your friend is lovely and that she is a very giving and caring person on her own, the truth is she is mandated to be charitable – by her church!
The pressure in the Mormon church to give at least 10% of your earnings (before taxes) to them is HUGE. Church activities are organized around giving and providing for others. Church one-on-one “interviews” asking if you are tithing are regular. The message is that if you don’t give generously and freely you aren’t going to the “top tier” of heaven.
So to say you don’t want someone telling you what to do with your money while you happily give your money to someone else who is telling you to is a bit disingenuous!
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Katie Reply:
July 21st, 2010 at 12:20 pm
She and I discussed that. They do tithe, but they also donate beyond their tithes, not just to the church but to other organizations as well. Trust me, she’s charitable. I hope someday to be half as giving as my friend is.
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GreenInOC Reply:
July 22nd, 2010 at 8:20 am
@Katie,
I am sure she is wonderful and very generous.
The truth about the church is that if you aren’t generous with your tithing and “helping of neighbors” you are told repeatedly that you aren’t going to go to the Celestial Kingdom. It is a HUGE motivation for members of the church.
It’s like saying, for the people that pay the highest taxes and donate the most to church and private charity you get to live in Beverly Hills for free and have all of your needs met (car, fuel, utilities, clothes, food, home decor, pets) without any limitations. For those that pay just their taxes well they get to live North Hollywood without having to pay rent and you get a car but nothing else is taken care of. For those that don’t pay their full amount of taxes well you get to live adjacent to LAX right under the flight path, a home is waiting for you but you have to pay monthly rent and provide everything else for yourself.
For those active in the church it’s very difficult to see how much pressure there is to support the church as the church dictates.
Your friend isn’t alone in her beliefs and the Mormon church isn’t alone in it’s indoctrination.
In my opinion it’s hypocritical to state that you don’t want the government telling you that your taxes are going to go up because it is the greater good for society and yet go to church and believe the sermon that the current government is evil and because taxes are going up for the greater good and oh, don’t forget to fill your tithing envelope more than you can comfortably because God isn’t going to reward you if you don’t!
(by the way, my examples (Beverly Hills, North Hollywood and LAX Adjacent), aren’t appealing to everyone but I chose them simply to make a comparison to the Mormon church’s heavenly reward system!)
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How extraordinary that you were able to have such a political discussion, and disagree, and yet not have anger or defensiveness turn it into something disagreeable at best and a fight at worst. It is too bad that most of us (including me) don’t have that ability. I’ll have to work on it, because it is a much more useful way of approaching disagreement.
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I have a friend like that. We disagree on so much but it’s so enlivening to have someone you can have these conversations with in the spirit of love and respect. I love her! How do you learn, how do you grow, if you just surround yourself with your same old, same old?
The other side of your blog – the content – I live in your socialist northern neighboring country. I think we also have a system which is inherently flawed, but it is one that I support wholeheartedly. Flawed is inevitable. Arrogant and self centred is optional. In addition to being taxed very heavily, I also give to a number of children and animal welfare based groups on a sacrificial level. It’s what those who have should do. I don’t have a lot. But I have more than many. I have a “deal” with myself that if I can afford that pair of shoes, then I can afford to donate the same amount elsewhere! And if I can’t do them both, then I don’t do either.
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purplebreath Reply:
July 21st, 2010 at 1:45 pm
@JeannieG, I’m humbled by your “deal” with yourself.
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Here’s a thing you might try telling your friend: We tried it her way. No government anti-poverty safety nets, no public anything, no industry regulation. It was called “the entire nineteenth century,” and it got us robber barons, roving bands of orphan street gangs, industry monopolies, etc etc. It doesn’t work. I get the whole “involuntary charity” thing, but society does not voluntarily provide a social safety net of any kind, other than through government.
Most Republicans will then at least admit to the need for a basic safety net of some kind, and then you’re just talking allocation. I for one think we could cut our military spending by half and still be the most powerful military in the world by far; and then use the other half to, you know, help people, fund schools, build trains, etc. Like Sweden.
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I am having this exact same conversation with my local Utah Republican Legislative Representative. Except maybe not quite so nicely. It’s his idea that accepting any and all federal funds for medicaid is unconstitutional and he is doing everything in his ability to make sure Utah gets less and less of them.
Which, in my humble opinion, means more and more kids like my son, Parker will no longer have any access to health care.
This sort of public infrastructure is greatly needed. Without it people die. Plain and simple.
And I should know.
Trying to keep Parker alive has damn near killed me.
There is no way my family could fund raise or turn to church and family to meet Parker’s needs.
Tammy and Parker
http://www.prayingforparker.com
@ParkerMama on Twitter
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Katie Reply:
July 21st, 2010 at 8:26 pm
Just reading your comment makes me want to bang my head on a wall. I hate that you have to go through that for Parker (I’m a long time lurker of your site, by the way), it’s not fair and it’s infuriating to have to fight for something that should be a basic right for a child. It’s just not okay, I’m really sorry.
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Hi, Katie!
I’ve been a reader for a long time and follow you on Twitter (casey0412), but I don’t think I’ve commented here more than once or twice. I just wanted to say that I think it’s great that you and your friend were able to have such a frank and honest conversation about topics that can be so difficult for people to talk about and remain civil.
My political beliefs are probably more like your friend’s, but I do like to hear your opinion about things, because, like you, I like people that make me think. I agree with you on a couple of things though. Yes, I think it’s our duty to help our fellow Americans, but I think that a lot of people have developed a sense of entitlement that they deserve free food, healthcare, housing, money, etc just because. I am a single mom (I work in healthcare) and I am tired of carrying the load for people that can’t be bothered to go out and be a productive member of society. I know that there of plenty of people that truly need assistance (the elderly and the handicapped just to name a few) and anyone (especially in this economy) can fall on hard times. My biggest beef are the people that have figured out that living off the welfare system is more lucrative than having a job. I have actually had (several) patients tell me that they made more money staying at home collecting a check every month than if they had a job- and this way WAY before the economic disaster. It’s insulting to those of us who work hard to provide for our families. My paycheck cannot take another tax increase.
That being said, I don’t think was one party that got us into the “pickle” that we’re facing now and I think that we need both of them to quit pointing fingers and work together to get us out of it.
And I think doing it over pizza is a lovely idea!
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I have a friend that I can talk like this with. We disagree on so many things I often ask her how we’re still friends
When we e-mail things can get heated but I usually call her on it and we take a break. Nothing is ever weird afterwards and I love that I can get a different point of view on things. We talk about everything under the sun and it’s great.
I never thought I could talk politics and other hot button topics with someone and not get mad – but still be able to be friends. I’m happy for you that you have a friend like that, too!
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