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	<title>Comments on: Trial by fire</title>
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	<link>http://overflowingbrain.com/2010/02/21/trial-by-fire/</link>
	<description>Witnessing absurdity since 1983.  With room for crazy since 2007.</description>
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		<title>By: mel</title>
		<link>http://overflowingbrain.com/2010/02/21/trial-by-fire/comment-page-1/#comment-5988</link>
		<dc:creator>mel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Feb 2010 19:02:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overflowingbrain.com/?p=2513#comment-5988</guid>
		<description>It is horrifying and as a mother of a 9yr old, I agree. I think each case should be looked at individually and age range taken into consideration, but  I also feel that the parent should be held accountable on some level.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is horrifying and as a mother of a 9yr old, I agree. I think each case should be looked at individually and age range taken into consideration, but  I also feel that the parent should be held accountable on some level.</p>
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		<title>By: Katie</title>
		<link>http://overflowingbrain.com/2010/02/21/trial-by-fire/comment-page-1/#comment-5985</link>
		<dc:creator>Katie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Feb 2010 04:00:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overflowingbrain.com/?p=2513#comment-5985</guid>
		<description>I think that charging him as adult is horrifying, simple as that. Sure, he didn&#039;t go to jail, but the court wanted to try him as an adult. Does committing an adult crime make you an adult? Do actions speak louder than scientific evidence on the brain and decision making capabilities?

I don&#039;t think they should be free. I think that these kids belong in juvenile rehab center where they can get TREATMENT. You cannot really punish a child for a crime like this because there is no way, simply by brain development alone, that a child of 9 or 11 can understand the magnitude of what they&#039;ve done. 

What do you think should happen to these kids. Should a mistake, albeit a tremendous and disturbing one, mean that at age 9 or 11 we send them away for life? Do you truly believe that a pre-teen is too old to be taught, to be rehabilitated?

I think that incarceration is giving up on these kids, and frankly, I think that all kids, even ones who make mistakes this severe, this unthinkable, deserve better.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think that charging him as adult is horrifying, simple as that. Sure, he didn&#8217;t go to jail, but the court wanted to try him as an adult. Does committing an adult crime make you an adult? Do actions speak louder than scientific evidence on the brain and decision making capabilities?</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think they should be free. I think that these kids belong in juvenile rehab center where they can get TREATMENT. You cannot really punish a child for a crime like this because there is no way, simply by brain development alone, that a child of 9 or 11 can understand the magnitude of what they&#8217;ve done. </p>
<p>What do you think should happen to these kids. Should a mistake, albeit a tremendous and disturbing one, mean that at age 9 or 11 we send them away for life? Do you truly believe that a pre-teen is too old to be taught, to be rehabilitated?</p>
<p>I think that incarceration is giving up on these kids, and frankly, I think that all kids, even ones who make mistakes this severe, this unthinkable, deserve better.</p>
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		<title>By: Karen</title>
		<link>http://overflowingbrain.com/2010/02/21/trial-by-fire/comment-page-1/#comment-5984</link>
		<dc:creator>Karen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Feb 2010 03:40:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overflowingbrain.com/?p=2513#comment-5984</guid>
		<description>Why would Cameron Kocher&#039;s case make you feel that the justice system handled his case in a &#039;horrific&#039; manner?  He was tried in a court of law and eventually set free.  During the trial he was not incarcerated, nor did he spend any time in jail after sentencing.  &quot;Kocher was free on bail and didn&#039;t spend any time in Monroe County prison. He eventually pleaded no contest to involuntary manslaughter and was placed on probation until he turned 21.&quot;

How could you possibly justify the actions of these kids as a mistake?  Both acted deliberately to harm someone else.  Both took someone&#039;s life.  While I agree that a life sentence or incarceration alongside adults is not justified in either case, both crimes are very upsetting and absolutely must be taken seriously in a court of law.  Brown is charged as an adult with criminal homicide. In Pennsylvania, there is no criminal homicide charge in juvenile court.  He put a blanket over the gun to hide it before he shot her.  That sounds pretty calculated to me.  What do you suggest the justice system do with him?  That level of cruelty at such a young age is not a mistake, and I sure wouldn&#039;t want him in school with my kids.  He had threatened his victim and her 7 year old daughter in the weeks before he killed her.  That sends chills down my spine.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Why would Cameron Kocher&#8217;s case make you feel that the justice system handled his case in a &#8216;horrific&#8217; manner?  He was tried in a court of law and eventually set free.  During the trial he was not incarcerated, nor did he spend any time in jail after sentencing.  &#8220;Kocher was free on bail and didn&#8217;t spend any time in Monroe County prison. He eventually pleaded no contest to involuntary manslaughter and was placed on probation until he turned 21.&#8221;</p>
<p>How could you possibly justify the actions of these kids as a mistake?  Both acted deliberately to harm someone else.  Both took someone&#8217;s life.  While I agree that a life sentence or incarceration alongside adults is not justified in either case, both crimes are very upsetting and absolutely must be taken seriously in a court of law.  Brown is charged as an adult with criminal homicide. In Pennsylvania, there is no criminal homicide charge in juvenile court.  He put a blanket over the gun to hide it before he shot her.  That sounds pretty calculated to me.  What do you suggest the justice system do with him?  That level of cruelty at such a young age is not a mistake, and I sure wouldn&#8217;t want him in school with my kids.  He had threatened his victim and her 7 year old daughter in the weeks before he killed her.  That sends chills down my spine.</p>
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		<title>By: Mary Jo</title>
		<link>http://overflowingbrain.com/2010/02/21/trial-by-fire/comment-page-1/#comment-5983</link>
		<dc:creator>Mary Jo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Feb 2010 02:36:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overflowingbrain.com/?p=2513#comment-5983</guid>
		<description>I agree with you though that these CHILDREN should not be tried as adults. 9 and 11? No way. Awful.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with you though that these CHILDREN should not be tried as adults. 9 and 11? No way. Awful.</p>
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		<title>By: alice</title>
		<link>http://overflowingbrain.com/2010/02/21/trial-by-fire/comment-page-1/#comment-5982</link>
		<dc:creator>alice</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Feb 2010 19:07:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overflowingbrain.com/?p=2513#comment-5982</guid>
		<description>As someone who works for an organization (faith-based social services agency), I applaud you for seeing the real issue. While we don&#039;t help children who have done something as severe as murder, we do help children that many have labled &quot;lost causes.&quot;  Most of these kids are products of their environments. If the law would do more to protect them before-hand, we&#039;d probably have less incidents of violence from them. It is amazing how reselient children can be if given the opportunity.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As someone who works for an organization (faith-based social services agency), I applaud you for seeing the real issue. While we don&#8217;t help children who have done something as severe as murder, we do help children that many have labled &#8220;lost causes.&#8221;  Most of these kids are products of their environments. If the law would do more to protect them before-hand, we&#8217;d probably have less incidents of violence from them. It is amazing how reselient children can be if given the opportunity.</p>
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		<title>By: Annie</title>
		<link>http://overflowingbrain.com/2010/02/21/trial-by-fire/comment-page-1/#comment-5981</link>
		<dc:creator>Annie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Feb 2010 18:58:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overflowingbrain.com/?p=2513#comment-5981</guid>
		<description>Katie, I love that you talk about serious and slightly taboo issues on here.  You definitely get people thinking :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Katie, I love that you talk about serious and slightly taboo issues on here.  You definitely get people thinking <img src='http://overflowingbrain.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: BC</title>
		<link>http://overflowingbrain.com/2010/02/21/trial-by-fire/comment-page-1/#comment-5980</link>
		<dc:creator>BC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Feb 2010 03:27:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overflowingbrain.com/?p=2513#comment-5980</guid>
		<description>Right - but that&#039;s exactly where the problem lies, in your comment that &quot;there has to be a limit to some of the malleability.&quot;  I think everyone can appreciate that you can&#039;t just incarcerate children whenever you want under an adult standard, but reasonable people differ on what that limit is.  Usually bright line rules don&#039;t work - such as &quot;below 18&quot; or &quot;below 15&quot; or whatnot, and when it&#039;s a standard based on the circumstances, well, then you&#039;re guaranteed that at least one person won&#039;t agree with what the court decides.

And I agree that if people are taking on pet causes instead of doing nothing, then that is preferable, but I think there is a legitimate argument to be made for supporting justice system reform for all people it is screwing over - minorities, juveniles, indigents, non-English speakers, etc. - all at once.  If enough people spoke up for &quot;all the people who have no voice&quot; maybe more people would take notice of the flaws in the system.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Right &#8211; but that&#8217;s exactly where the problem lies, in your comment that &#8220;there has to be a limit to some of the malleability.&#8221;  I think everyone can appreciate that you can&#8217;t just incarcerate children whenever you want under an adult standard, but reasonable people differ on what that limit is.  Usually bright line rules don&#8217;t work &#8211; such as &#8220;below 18&#8243; or &#8220;below 15&#8243; or whatnot, and when it&#8217;s a standard based on the circumstances, well, then you&#8217;re guaranteed that at least one person won&#8217;t agree with what the court decides.</p>
<p>And I agree that if people are taking on pet causes instead of doing nothing, then that is preferable, but I think there is a legitimate argument to be made for supporting justice system reform for all people it is screwing over &#8211; minorities, juveniles, indigents, non-English speakers, etc. &#8211; all at once.  If enough people spoke up for &#8220;all the people who have no voice&#8221; maybe more people would take notice of the flaws in the system.</p>
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		<title>By: Katie</title>
		<link>http://overflowingbrain.com/2010/02/21/trial-by-fire/comment-page-1/#comment-5979</link>
		<dc:creator>Katie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Feb 2010 01:10:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overflowingbrain.com/?p=2513#comment-5979</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t actually disagree with you here.  There are situations when 18 isn&#039;t necessarily a hard and fast rule and I think that a 17 year old could very easily be tried as an adult, because that&#039;s a different level of maturity.  But 9 and 11 year olds?  No, I don&#039;t.  I know and appreciate that the laws are malleable, but there has to be a limit to some of the malleability when it has as severe of consequences as incarcerating pre-teens.

I do think the whole system is broken, but it&#039;s easier to identify the pet causes than to try to take on the whole thing all at one time.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t actually disagree with you here.  There are situations when 18 isn&#8217;t necessarily a hard and fast rule and I think that a 17 year old could very easily be tried as an adult, because that&#8217;s a different level of maturity.  But 9 and 11 year olds?  No, I don&#8217;t.  I know and appreciate that the laws are malleable, but there has to be a limit to some of the malleability when it has as severe of consequences as incarcerating pre-teens.</p>
<p>I do think the whole system is broken, but it&#8217;s easier to identify the pet causes than to try to take on the whole thing all at one time.</p>
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		<title>By: BC</title>
		<link>http://overflowingbrain.com/2010/02/21/trial-by-fire/comment-page-1/#comment-5978</link>
		<dc:creator>BC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Feb 2010 01:00:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overflowingbrain.com/?p=2513#comment-5978</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s really so much more complicated than &quot;the courts be[ing] allowed to make exceptions when its citizens cannot.&quot;

It actually is the law in this situation (in many states, and the law differs by state, so it is very important in talking about each story to identify the state) to determine it on a case by case basis.  Courts are not just arbitrarily making exceptions.  And, besides, in some cases, citizens can make exceptions.  For example, murder is excused in instances when your life is in immediate danger (called self-defense).  Maybe not the same to you, but another example of &quot;malleable&quot; laws.

While I don&#039;t disagree with what Katie has said, I do think that in an instance where a 17 year old methodically perpetrates calculated killings of, say, 8 or 9 people over a week, demonstrating adult-levels of premeditation and coldness, an adult trial would be appropriate.  And if that &quot;child&quot; were not tried as an adult, people would be up in arms over the injustice.

Our justice system tries to be flexible enough to accommodate both situations, but of course it fails.  I wish more people would realize just how broken the whole system is, instead of just complaining about their pet cause, whether it be tort reform, juvenile justice, racial disparities in convictions, or junk science&#039;s role in trials.

Just my two cents.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s really so much more complicated than &#8220;the courts be[ing] allowed to make exceptions when its citizens cannot.&#8221;</p>
<p>It actually is the law in this situation (in many states, and the law differs by state, so it is very important in talking about each story to identify the state) to determine it on a case by case basis.  Courts are not just arbitrarily making exceptions.  And, besides, in some cases, citizens can make exceptions.  For example, murder is excused in instances when your life is in immediate danger (called self-defense).  Maybe not the same to you, but another example of &#8220;malleable&#8221; laws.</p>
<p>While I don&#8217;t disagree with what Katie has said, I do think that in an instance where a 17 year old methodically perpetrates calculated killings of, say, 8 or 9 people over a week, demonstrating adult-levels of premeditation and coldness, an adult trial would be appropriate.  And if that &#8220;child&#8221; were not tried as an adult, people would be up in arms over the injustice.</p>
<p>Our justice system tries to be flexible enough to accommodate both situations, but of course it fails.  I wish more people would realize just how broken the whole system is, instead of just complaining about their pet cause, whether it be tort reform, juvenile justice, racial disparities in convictions, or junk science&#8217;s role in trials.</p>
<p>Just my two cents.</p>
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		<title>By: Marla</title>
		<link>http://overflowingbrain.com/2010/02/21/trial-by-fire/comment-page-1/#comment-5977</link>
		<dc:creator>Marla</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Feb 2010 21:15:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overflowingbrain.com/?p=2513#comment-5977</guid>
		<description>I get disgusted each time I hear about a child being charged as an adult. I could have written this post. It makes no sense to me how the courts can say that someone less than the age of 18 can be considered an adult. The law is written for a reason. Why should the courts be allowed to make exceptions when its citizens cannot? Bullshit! I think you summed it up well.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I get disgusted each time I hear about a child being charged as an adult. I could have written this post. It makes no sense to me how the courts can say that someone less than the age of 18 can be considered an adult. The law is written for a reason. Why should the courts be allowed to make exceptions when its citizens cannot? Bullshit! I think you summed it up well.</p>
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